Warrant Officer Grade 3?

In relation to Troop Sergeant Major (Forward Delivery Troop) is anyone aware of the rank of WO3 used in the British Army. I understand that it was introduced in 1938 because of a lack of troop leaders and platoon commanders. The badge of rank was a crown (WO2s wore a crown surrounded by a wreath). When the rank of WO3 was later discontinued, WO2s reverted to wearing crowns.

The question is...was the rank of WO3 ever used by the Australian Army?

Many thanks, Bruce

I have two very good friends who rose to the rank of Staff Sgt. during their military careers, and they were often referred to s WO 3's.!! In fun of course.

Hi Bish,

I don't know much about the subject...but at one time, RSMs wore four chevrons, with a crown above them....so sgts, three stripes; WOs, four stripes; and RSMs, four stripes and crown. The three stripes and crown would seem to be a variation on the theme. I think the WO3 rank was discontinued in the British Army in 1947. Australian WO2s might have worn crowns surrounded by a wreath up until that time (?).

Cheers, Bruce

Just for those wondering...the point of my question is to establish whether or not TSM Fwd Del Tp was the first TSM appointment in the ARMY. (Where WO3s replaced a troop leader in the British Army, they were designated TSMs).

Cheers, Bruce.

Army - Non Commissioned ranks from the WW2 Nominal Roll Bruce. I'm glad I was not in the navy in WW2 as they had over 200 ranks. http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/doc/glossary.asp#ran


Branch Rank Rank Abbreviation
All Branches Company Sergeant Major CSM
Warrant Officer Class 1 WO1
Warrant Officer Class 2 WO2
Staff Sergeant S-Sgt
Sergeant Sgt
Lance Sergeant L-Sgt
Corporal Cpl
Bombardier Bdr
Lance Bombardier L-Bdr
Lance Corporal L-Cpl
Private Pte
Pioneer Pnr
Gunner Gnr
Craftsman Cfn
Driver Dvr
Signalman Sig
Sapper Spr
Trooper Tpr

Thanks Gavan.

Fortunately I don't have to deal with Lance Sergeants (it took me long enough to establish the origin of the rank Trooper.)

Cheers, Bruce

G'Day Bruce. It is true that, in the 1960s and 1970s, the British Army did use a system of designated SNCO Pl and Tp Comds where a subaltern officer was not available to command. The worn badge of rank was that of a SSgt. Cheers,

Hi Bruce,

Here are a few extracts from the 1938 Rifle Brigade Chronicle which give some historical detail. On reading the various letters to the Editor from the Rifle Depot and the two regular battalions, you get a feel for the great increase in tempo within the british army starting from just before the Munich Crisis.

From the 2nd Battalion Letters to the Editor, p75: "A noteworthy event in the history of the regiment was the official recognition that leadership of a platoon, or its equivalent, could be entrusted to selected non-commissioned ranks, and our congratulations go out to all those who have been promoted (the first) Platoon Sergeant Majors, WOs Class III, particularly to PSMs Pinnock, Willis and Sandell of our battalion and Curtis, now at the Depot. For them it is a unique distinction."

The Rifle Depot letter (p83) also mentions the promotion of Curtis but provides a bit more context, as follows: "The summer and autumn brought further changes to the Depot thanks to the inventiveness of the Secretary of State for War; [ Hore Belisha I think.] Harvey and Gore suddenly found that they became majors, Nichol and Smiley captains - the former vastly indignant because he lost his adjutant's pay over the deal. The new rank of WOIII was introduced.... The new field drill was introduced whereby the forming of fours was abolished and practically all drill (as anybody had hitherto understood drill) was cast aside, fours giving way to threes till pathetic appeals arrived from the 1st Battalion imploring that recruits should be taught to form fours, if only for church parade."

Finally, there is a note at p117 that these promotions were for 1 January 1939 but 'w.e.f. 1 October 1938.'

Hope this is of interest.

Regards
Chris

Thanks Chris...this confirms the PSM (and by association, the TSM) in the British Army.

In terms of the RAAC TSMs, eg Percy White, Trevor Dingle etc...it seems to me that the appointment was made when the troop leader was a captain but had no 2IC. For example...in APC troops, the troop leader was a captain, but he had a troop officer...so a troop sergeant was appointed instead.

Cheers, Bruce

BruceCameron wrote:Hi Bish,

I don't know much about the subject...but at one time, RSMs wore four chevrons, with a crown above them....so sgts, three stripes; WOs, four stripes; and RSMs, four stripes and crown. The three stripes and crown would seem to be a variation on the theme. I think the WO3 rank was discontinued in the British Army in 1947. Australian WO2s might have worn crowns surrounded by a wreath up until that time (?).

Cheers, Bruce

Wreathed crowns were worn by WO2s in the Australian Army. The wreath differentiated those WOs who held administrative (Clerical/Q) positions from those in SM positions (plain crown). My grandfather, 1st AIF, wore a wreathed crown. I don't know when the practice was discontinued.

So that would cause some Mess punch ups.
Whose was the higher Ranking Warrant, the WO 111 Pl Commander or the Wo 2 CSM?
Another question, its easier to ask than to look.
Was the term Colour Sgt a rank or an appointment?

Hi Max,

My father served in the Greenjackets from 1936 to 1961 (Rifle Brigade 1936 to 1946 and 1948 to 1950; then Kings Royal Rifle Corps 1950 to 1961 when he retired as a WOII). He was promoted to Colour Sergeant in 1951 as the ORQMS (Orderly Room Quarter Master Sergeant) of the 1st Bn in Dempsey Barracks, Sennelager. My understanding is that CSGT was the rank and ORQMS was the appointment. In other regiments, SSGT was the equivalent rank. He always regarded being called 'colour' as far superior to 'staff'.
Regards,
chris

Chris, would that be an RHQ appointment, rather than a CHQ type.
I'm working from the CHQ orderly room corporal posting as against the RHQ orderly room sergeant {Chief Clerk??} posting.

Hi Bruce, an old mate, Trevor Dingle, who joined up with me and served in Vietnam in Forward delivery troop. He was under our old RSM Ghilchrist, who by that time had a commission as a Captain. Would this have made Trevor a W.O.111? It is something I never heard him mention when I met him again at Pucka just before he passed away nor saw anything in his photo collection that I copied for his wife, to point me in this direction. Regards Col

Yes, the ORQMS appointment was a BHQ position; chief clerk as you surmised.
Regards,
Chris